General Discussion

[Apogey 8]

Hello MicroVolts community,

 

I would like to express my thoughts, suggestions for balancing and some ideas that can be implemented in current zombie mod. I am not maining only zombie mode, but i like to play it often times. I want to apologize in advance if my english is bad.

 

Current zombie balance issues

Zombie balance is a bit bad at that moment. On maps where are no spots, where a high zombie jump just won’t get, it’s simply very difficult to play for figures, if you don’t group up and kill father zombie as he appears, thereby preventing him from spreading infection among players, then chances of figures winning become critically small, for example the Rumpus Room map or the Forgotten Yunk Yard. But it is also worth noting that on maps where is good spots where zombies have to work for get you, on that maps current balance is playable, there is really a line between abilities of zombies and the cunning of figures that use reachable spots, for example maps Neighborhood, Hobby Shop.

 

Spots, glitches and their difference

On current maps there are so-called spots and glitches. By "spots" i mean places that are reached by players with using jump, run speed, player boost or weapon boost, some spots are easy, some need to be practiced using an example using weapon boost (by example bazooka rocket boost on Neighborhood map, on vents). So by glitches i mean places that are reached using bugs in game or the map itself, which sometimes player can reach out the map, and of course, a zombie who cannot repeat actions of bug will not reach player in glitch. It is worth distinguishing what is so-called spots and what is glitch, because from point of view of spots in essence, the game is fair, figure can reach a certain place using usual functionality of game, and zombies can absolutely reach this place with their abilities when glitches are no longer fair. By the way, this is really a important question, since players vote kicking those who climbed some kind of spot, and sometimes they even threaten to ban lmao, if we remove all spots that i described (not glitches) from the game, then there will be no balance with the current abilities of zombies at all.

 

Maps

At that moment there are not enough maps for this mode, i don’t know whether in future it’s worth putting all ingame maps under this mode, but more maps are definitely needed. Also worth giving an example with map Forgotten Yunk Yard and (large) version, which was in the old microvolts, large version is really more suitable for zombie mode, since it has good places for figures, when in current version where borders are closed and there no good places at all. And of course it would be great to see new created maps for this mode in the future!

 

Old zombie balance and offer for complaining players

There are players who complain about both glitches and spots, and consider spots also unfair, without taking note abilities of zombies. I think there will be complaints in future, since during old microvolts they were regular (and to be honest, in my opinion this is just whining), so there is a slightly complicated offer:

1. Remove most of the difficult spots (like bazooka boost), and all glitches, but return old balance of zombies (without speed, without high jumps and a lot of HP, or you can adjust the middle between all this)
2. OR leave current zombie abilities, do not touch spots and remove in future glitches that work with using bugging and allow player to go out of map. Of course, current option will not be ideal on all maps, as i said, where will be a lack of spots, but won’t need to bother and change anything radically. 

 

Ty in advance for paying attention to this topic.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Apogey

[SuperAb 5]

They are so hard to kill, especially Voltenstein. Agreed

[Kotonoe 5]

I agree, there's a reason why people still play zombies. The spots you can reach with difficult movement unintentionally "saved" this game mode from being a figure slaughter every single round. But it's not like I don't understand the people that are complaining about the hard-to-get-to spots. 

You need to approach Zombie Mode with a very different mindset. What you actually want to do in this game mode is go where everyone else is. (usually, it's a populular spot that is hard to get to). That way, if you're a figure, great, your odds have increased drastically. If not, nice, now you get 1-5 free infects and everyone in the spot is forced to flee. Though of course, a one-sied game isn't fun for either side, so i recommend going zombie hunting if the scales happen to be tipped in your favor for too long.

[Kotonoe 5]

Personally, I think the normal zombie balance is fine. As i said, you just gotta come at it with a different perspective. The zombie jump height is not good, it makes it too easy for zombies and removes the need to stack. Other side-effects include: Over-jumping your target. The maps were designed with a specific jump height in mind. Now, there are certain spots and scenarios where you're somewhat forced to either jump once and not reach the next platform, or double-jump and overshoot your target, or : initiate your jump wayy earlier. Another issue is that you can't match figure jump height as well. As we all know, melee hitboxes hit targets in front of you, and targets that are *slightly* below your strike. Now, you often jump wayy too high when trying to match a figure's jump and strike them. I think they should revert this change.

[Apogey 8]

Quote

Other side-effects include: Over-jumping your target. The maps were designed with a specific jump height in mind.

Funny example, on Magic Peper Land you can use a high zombie jump to jump out of the map, while all you are using is a game function and not a bugging, which makes an excuse for those who can use it as a zombie

 

[Gabi 18]

I have been having fun in Zombie mode in MVR, and I really like the jump height of zombies, but if they hadn't left so much glitches behind, maybe it wouldn't be as needed as it is today. And I deeply agree with the lack of maps, they should add more larger maps soon.

 

I suggest them to remove all the glitches that is known as of today, and then test removing the zombies increased jump height.

 

Now, a more biased opinion, as I prefer playing as a zombie: If they are keeping the jump height, they should adjust the zombies' melee range by a little bit 🤏🏻, because sometimes is really hard to infect figures the way it is now, I have to be very close and looking at the figure to the melee to hit. I think it's related to what Kotonoe said when talking about matching jump heights. Also, as a zombie, I really dislike tank figures. From a game design perspective, is that supposed to be possible?

 

They should never remove the zombie's speed, I don't think that makes any sense. The zombies always had their speed boost, even before the increased jump height.

[Apogey 8]

25 minutes ago, Gabi said:

They should never remove the zombie's speed, I don't think that makes any sense. The zombies always had their speed boost, even before the increased jump height.

ye, sorry, i made a slight mistake in text when wroted to remove speed, it was always there from beginning of this mod as far as i know, there is really no need to remove zombie speed ability.

[desafinado56 358]

Zombies should remain as they are and instead they should buff weapon damage and melee run speed or lower zombie health because as it is right now your only option is to hide. Gone are the surge days of running away and skillfully jumping from ledge to ledge skillfully hitting shots to make zombies stay away, now all you can do is find a little camping spot and sit there for 3 minutes. Back in surge nobody complained about zombies speed, their jump height their health, nothing. People played and had fun but now both in game and on the forums people complain about these things which is sad because zombie mode was and still is my favorite game mode and i hate that the way they tried to balance the game not only made the regular game more bland but it also came close to killing zombie mode.

[Apogey 8]

6 minutes ago, desafinado56 said:

Back in surge nobody complained about zombies speed, their jump height their health, nothing. People played and had fun but now both in game and on the forums people complain about these things which is sad

They really complained less when there was an old balance without high jumps and with a lot of hp for zombies, but as far as i remember at that time on most maps there were a lot of glitches and places that people complained about a lot of them, and if patch the glitch is ok, patching the place (spot) is not an good idea, perhaps that’s why previous developers decided to add a high jump, and with that they also patched a lot of normal spots like blue tower on Magic Peper Land which everyone was jumping on.

[Irsena 0]

48 minutes ago, desafinado56 said:

Zombies should remain as they are and instead they should buff weapon damage and melee run speed or lower zombie health because as it is right now your only option is to hide. Gone are the surge days of running away and skillfully jumping from ledge to ledge skillfully hitting shots to make zombies stay away, now all you can do is find a little camping spot and sit there for 3 minutes. Back in surge nobody complained about zombies speed, their jump height their health, nothing. People played and had fun but now both in game and on the forums people complain about these things which is sad because zombie mode was and still is my favorite game mode and i hate that the way they tried to balance the game not only made the regular game more bland but it also came close to killing zombie mode.

There is no point in reducing the zombie's HP, because it is already low when there are few people in the lobby. As for the jump, I personally have been unhappy since the days of the old MV. There are a lot of places, unused, where you could previously sit and hit, but this is no longer possible due to excessively high jumps. That's why people climb into glitchy places, because there is no salvation anywhere. On the map "House Top" there used to be some kind of salvation on the shelves, now you can jump there for 2 counts behind zombies. Just remove the damn jump and life will become easier.
Of course, it's still worth working on areas with bugs. Many people complain about spots with ventilation and door handles on the “Neighborhood” map, but it’s really possible to get them there, unlike textures.

[desafinado56 358]

38 minutes ago, Irsena said:

There is no point in reducing the zombie's HP, because it is already low when there are few people in the lobby. As for the jump, I personally have been unhappy since the days of the old MV. There are a lot of places, unused, where you could previously sit and hit, but this is no longer possible due to excessively high jumps. That's why people climb into glitchy places, because there is no salvation anywhere. On the map "House Top" there used to be some kind of salvation on the shelves, now you can jump there for 2 counts behind zombies. Just remove the damn jump and life will become easier.
Of course, it's still worth working on areas with bugs. Many people complain about spots with ventilation and door handles on the “Neighborhood” map, but it’s really possible to get them there, unlike textures.

The high jumps zombies can make are there to fight against camping on harder to get spots, thats what makes the game mode work, because how can you play cat and mouse if the other person has a gun ? You need to have something that lets you close the gap thats where the extra speed and jump height come in, they are needed to balance things and make the game work otherwise it will be just like every other zombie mode where you run somewhere that needs jumping and shoot at things under you with no threat whatsoever. This is why zombie mode in microvolts was so good it forced you to get out of your safe zone and fight the zombies because the game was built on mobility and this game mode uses it very well the issue now compared to surge is that weapons are underpowered so your only option is to hide which makes the game boring.

[Apogey 8]

14 hours ago, desafinado56 said:

The high jumps zombies can make are there to fight against camping on harder to get spots, thats what makes the game mode work, because how can you play cat and mouse if the other person has a gun ? You need to have something that lets you close the gap thats where the extra speed and jump height come in, they are needed to balance things and make the game work otherwise it will be just like every other zombie mode where you run somewhere that needs jumping and shoot at things under you with no threat whatsoever. This is why zombie mode in microvolts was so good it forced you to get out of your safe zone and fight the zombies because the game was built on mobility and this game mode uses it very well the issue now compared to surge is that weapons are underpowered so your only option is to hide which makes the game boring.

ye, actually high jumps on some part of mappool have a balance between places of figures and the fact that a zombie can get there with a double jump, but when there are no such places on map for figures at all where zombies don’t even need to try to get you (using the example of a maps: Forgotten Yunk Yard, Trucker Factory, Beach, Wild West, Rumpus Room) so therefore on such maps there is an order lack of balance between figures and zombies, according to statistics of my game almost all rounds during the game zombies on such maps was defeat figures due to their abilities and lack of good places for figures. I think it’s still worth to rebuild mappool, return a larger versions of maps (for example for Forgotten Yunk Yard and Magic Peper Land), remove maps that simply don’t have good places for figures to fight off zombies, and it would be cool to see new maps specifically for this mode in the future if of course developer is interested in it.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Apogey

[desafinado56 358]

9 hours ago, Apogey said:

ye, actually high jumps on some part of mappool have a balance between places of figures and the fact that a zombie can get there with a double jump, but when there are no such places on map for figures at all where zombies don’t even need to try to get you (using the example of a maps: Forgotten Yunk Yard, Trucker Factory, Beach, Wild West, Rumpus Room) so therefore on such maps there is an order lack of balance between figures and zombies, according to statistics of my game almost all rounds during the game zombies on such maps was defeat figures due to their abilities and lack of good places for figures. I think it’s still worth to rebuild mappool, return a larger versions of maps (for example for Forgotten Yunk Yard and Magic Peper Land), remove maps that simply don’t have good places for figures to fight off zombies, and it would be cool to see new maps specifically for this mode in the future if of course developer is interested in it.

Heres the thing about three of those maps you mentioned, they werent in the original map pool for zombies, they were added later and of course they are the worse maps to play zombies because you really lack places to jump around on. Compare it to studio a map specificcally made with zombies in mind and youll see what the devs had in mind for the game mode: A lot of places for you to jump to and from to throw off zombies aim, locations that can defended without feeling like bullshit but overall its a map where camping in one spot isnt the best of ideas. Thats what zombies is all about its cat and mouse, a game of chase and said game is no fun if the person youre after is somewhere you could never hope to get. Thats why the zombies added agility is so important its a balancing act, the problem are that some maps really dont work well with zombies because they were never made to be played in such a game mode, so removing the maps that play poorly with this game mode or making small changes to them so they work a bit better is a better idea than down right removing the one thing that made zombies fun to play and balanced. Instead what we need is a buff to figure melee run speed and damage.

[Tanooki 445]

29 minutes ago, desafinado56 said:

Heres the thing about three of those maps you mentioned, they werent in the original map pool for zombies, they were added later and of course they are the worse maps to play zombies because you really lack places to jump around on. Compare it to studio a map specificcally made with zombies in mind and youll see what the devs had in mind for the game mode: A lot of places for you to jump to and from to throw off zombies aim, locations that can defended without feeling like bullshit but overall its a map where camping in one spot isnt the best of ideas. Thats what zombies is all about its cat and mouse, a game of chase and said game is no fun if the person youre after is somewhere you could never hope to get. Thats why the zombies added agility is so important its a balancing act, the problem are that some maps really dont work well with zombies because they were never made to be played in such a game mode, so removing the maps that play poorly with this game mode or making small changes to them so they work a bit better is a better idea than down right removing the one thing that made zombies fun to play and balanced. Instead what we need is a buff to figure melee run speed and damage.

 

The whole point of the mode was to hide in obscure spots (camping in model ship for example) or group up on zombies, that's how it was advertised in the launch video for zombie mode. They nerfed runspeed melees for players and gave zombies high jumps so it's more apparent than ever that players are going to go for the hiding aspect rather than the mob aspect of the mode. Also forgotten junkyard was balanced around zombie mode but they patched 70% of the map because it had too many bugs they didn't know how to fix so they just nuked the entire map. Magic paperland got patched because people would camp spawn in team elimination and it in turn made zombie mode harder in the process.

 

I agree with the smaller maps being added though, that was abit silly but it was also welcomed because having more maps for any mode is fine, that's why there's a recommended player limit it gives you per map. I'm more saddened that they removed other big maps like rock band and castle siege.

 

  

9 hours ago, Apogey said:

I think it’s still worth to rebuild mappool, return a larger versions of maps (for example for Forgotten Yunk Yard and Magic Peper Land), remove maps that simply don’t have good places for figures to fight off zombies, and it would be cool to see new maps specifically for this mode in the future if of course developer is interested in it.

 

I agree with this, for the reasons above.

Edited September 17, 2023 by Tanooki

[MicroData 52]

On 9/16/2023 at 3:54 PM, Apogey said:

They really complained less when there was an old balance without high jumps and with a lot of hp for zombies, but as far as i remember at that time on most maps there were a lot of glitches and places that people complained about a lot of them, and if patch the glitch is ok, patching the place (spot) is not an good idea, perhaps that’s why previous developers decided to add a high jump, and with that they also patched a lot of normal spots like blue tower on Magic Peper Land which everyone was jumping on.

 

That blue tower isn't patched at all.

 

I agree with everything OP has to say about the maps and spots vs glitches.

 

Zombies should always have their high health and run speed.

 

Zombies do NOT need boosted jump height. Zombies in all versions of the game have known to rely on working together and climbing each other.

 

I think a good compromise would be for the tank zombie to keep the boosted jump.

 

I thought the above the vent spot on Neighborhood was unfair at first, but then I realized a zombie can just jump there with the boost jump. They can also stack up right next to it.

 

I remember Toy Fleet being a really OP figure map back in the day, and thought it still would be today, but after playing on it again, it's actually pretty fair, if not too good for zombies now because of the boosted jump height. I think the antennae on blue side needs to be jumpable for figures again.

 

There are a lot of maps in MV Zombies now that just seem to suck or have no spots at all. Girl's High School. Beach. Tracker Factory. Forgotton Junk Yard. Anyone else wanna make a tier list?

 

----

 

In addition to the spots and glitches in many maps, I think a lot of invisible wall zones need to be opened up in a lot of maps just to give figures a greater variety in hiding spots.

I mean, Forgotten Junk Yard is so closed off that literally ammo and power weapons are spawning outside of the playable map area.

 

But I'm not talking about even just the big obvious stuff like that. I mean small potentially walkable platforms or corners to hide in too.

Edited September 18, 2023 by MicroData

[Apogey 8]

 

3 hours ago, MicroData said:

That blue tower isn't patched at all.

I mean this tower, this was a very popular place for figures and everyone would climb there, but that was when there was no high jump, i think with a high zombie jump this place would be fair, besides there are some other places on this map like that, last time they closed some borders on the map like in Forgotten Junk Yard.

Quote

 

3 hours ago, MicroData said:

I think a good compromise would be for the tank zombie to keep the boosted jump.

I completely agree with this option, then a problem of why infected zombies die so quickly will be solved (sometimes one clip from a riffle is enough to insta kill, rofl)

3 hours ago, MicroData said:

I thought the above the vent spot on Neighborhood was unfair at first, but then I realized a zombie can just jump there with the boost jump. They can also stack up right next to it.

Yes, you can very easily jump and get a player if you just use a high jump at the right angle, figures there literally need to have a strong reaction to counter this, and if only one player standing there, then he will run out of ammo very quickly.

 

3 hours ago, MicroData said:

In addition to the spots and glitches in many maps, I think a lot of invisible wall zones need to be opened up in a lot of maps just to give figures a greater variety in hiding spots.

I mean, Forgotten Junk Yard is so closed off that literally ammo and power weapons are spawning outside of the playable map area.

 

But I'm not talking about even just the big obvious stuff like that. I mean small potentially walkable platforms or corners to hide in too.

They just need to return signed (Large) version of this map, when past developers changed this map, they left two versions, new one with closed borders and old that signed "(Large)".

[Irsena 0]

On 9/17/2023 at 1:12 AM, desafinado56 said:

The high jumps zombies can make are there to fight against camping on harder to get spots, thats what makes the game mode work, because how can you play cat and mouse if the other person has a gun ? You need to have something that lets you close the gap thats where the extra speed and jump height come in, they are needed to balance things and make the game work otherwise it will be just like every other zombie mode where you run somewhere that needs jumping and shoot at things under you with no threat whatsoever. This is why zombie mode in microvolts was so good it forced you to get out of your safe zone and fight the zombies because the game was built on mobility and this game mode uses it very well the issue now compared to surge is that weapons are underpowered so your only option is to hide which makes the game boring.

There is almost nowhere to build these camps; they get you everywhere. Zombies are still being killed with the current weapons. I already wrote that they wanted to kick me for quickly killing an infected person. The game of "Cat and Mouse" has been and will continue to be. I have already given examples of several places in which it is currently impossible to sit out in any way.
In such places, zombies always grouped together and picked off survivors by standing on top of each other. And here the jumps are high and stand on top of each other.

[TESVShiro 2]

i want zombies to have health regen after 5 to 10 seconds of not taking damage so the people that climbed up or glitched have a reason to jump down and finish off the zombies 

 

obviously the glitches that allow you to jump out of the entire map should be fixed    so far i know about rumpus room  magic paper land  and the truck map

im aware thsi isnt only affecting zombies i dont even know how that is in the game after all the time they had kinda annoys me to be honest